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Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

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Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by mistermunster on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:09 pm

Always a fresh perspective from outside the US

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/27/republican-attack-unions-class-wisconsin

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by mistermunster on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:10 pm

mistermunster wrote:Always a fresh perspective from outside the US

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/27/republican-attack-unions-class-wisconsin

As the prospect of becoming rich diminishes, many are simply trying not to become poor. Inequality of income and wealth has been more readily accepted in the US because equality of opportunity has long been assumed. The absence of the latter raises serious questions about the existence of the former. This tension brought thousands to the streets in all 50 states to support the Wisconsin unions last weekend.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by gettheminNOVEMBER on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:20 pm

I like to go across the pond myself once in awhile I bet they think twice now about the land of opportunity

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by mistermunster on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:27 pm

"the land of opportunity" IS NOW an almost extinct motto. It should now be America, land of GREED, Slavery and servitude. Which our History will show has been truer than any FLAG waiving , apple pie BS RHETORIC.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by gettheminNOVEMBER on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:31 pm

Do you think the people have the WILL and the POWER to change things? Or is it too late munster?

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by mistermunster on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:38 pm

Kermit THE Frog wrote:Do you think the people have the WILL and the POWER to change things? Or is it too late munster?
Maybe, if people stop listening to all the MEDIA lies and propaganda and THINK for themselves. The media is a MAIN culprit in keeping people at each others throats while the elite sit in their ivory towers a laughing all the way to the bank with their dishonestly acquired money.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by gettheminNOVEMBER on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:45 pm

mistermunster wrote:
Kermit THE Frog wrote:Do you think the people have the WILL and the POWER to change things? Or is it too late munster?
Maybe, if people stop listening to all the MEDIA lies and propaganda and THINK for themselves. The media is a MAIN culprit in keeping people at each others throats while the elite sit in their ivory towers a laughing all the way to the bank with their dishonestly acquired money.

So we are doomed then.

Maybe when Murdock from fox dies and the world has a few less Koch brothers things will change. Then again its probably like cutting off the head of the hydra and two more sprout up.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:38 pm

I think that people have the will and are now getting together in larger ways than we can because we are so spread out. Think about it, in many states it started with the teachers (as the saying goes, they stopped picking on the unemployed, moved on to the teachers, now it's state employees, next it will be city employees and so on). The "lazy" 99ers and unemployed are being left alone for the moment, we've moved on to the teachers and any union organization. However, people are starting to see that once they run out of organizations and unions they'll be moving on to the private sector, mfg's making and charging too much, builders, utilities, stores etc. It NEVER will be Insurance, Banks, Wall Street, or GM, Chrysler. It has already started in mortgages with Fannie and Freddie (which did need help) but the private mortgage companies who made bad loan after bad loan are not named or thrown under the bus. There is a definite reason for this, they will never trash their own. They won't lose contributions from major pharmacuetals, banks, oil companies and the like. Many oil companies workforces are unionized. Not that I want them to, but have you noticed with major profits and the increasing prices, they have not once gone after them regarding their employees salaries, pensions or healthplans. Again, not that I want them to, but believe me they won't risk their political necks on that.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by Izzy66 on Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:12 pm

I've got a burning question,


WHERE WERE ALL THESE WISCONSIN/OHIO/INDIANA PUBLIC WORKERS ON ELECTION DAY?

1. Were they just too busy to vote?
2. Were they uninformed about the issues and candidates? Did they care?
3. How many, insulated by their employed routine, believed the tea party rhetoric (like the woman above) and actually voted for the very GOP governors who now wish to take their unions out?

I strongly suspect all three possibilities were involved.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by gettheminNOVEMBER on Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:23 pm

Izzy66 wrote:I've got a burning question,


WHERE WERE ALL THESE WISCONSIN/OHIO/INDIANA PUBLIC WORKERS ON ELECTION DAY?

1. Were they just too busy to vote?
2. Were they uninformed about the issues and candidates? Did they care?
3. How many, insulated by their employed routine, believed the tea party rhetoric (like the woman above) and actually voted for the very GOP governors who now wish to take their unions out?

I strongly suspect all three possibilities were involved.

Talk about a SWIFT kick in the butt HUH? Maybe now they will pay attention?

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:35 pm

If I gave anyone the impression that I am a tea partier, please re-read my post. I am not a tea partier and would never become one. No offense to anyone who is, but they do not share my beliefs.

Sorry for the mis-interpretation.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:28 pm

Izzy66 wrote:I've got a burning question,


WHERE WERE ALL THESE WISCONSIN/OHIO/INDIANA PUBLIC WORKERS ON ELECTION DAY?

1. Were they just too busy to vote?
2. Were they uninformed about the issues and candidates? Did they care?
3. How many, insulated by their employed routine, believed the tea party rhetoric (like the woman above) and actually voted for the very GOP governors who now wish to take their unions out?

I strongly suspect all three possibilities were involved.

I made time to vote and did not vote for what's happening now. I try to be informed on the issues and do care about what's happening in my world.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by tristen303 on Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:58 pm

Thus far its the local unions and unions from outside the state as well as affilated groups. The combined unions in the state don't even represent 1 percent of Wisc. total population; to call this a war on the middle class is giving them far to much credit it is a war on the public sector and since they know they don't have the numbers they need to spin it to be the middle class or nobody would care. What's even funnier is that same middle class that elected the Dems and Obama before have now elected the Repubs so apparently they are well aware of what they want and don't want. That's the beauty of an election; the middle class majority wants spending cut period and want the hands out the freebies and the groups that bought political clout in hopes of never being cut to be on the chopping block not immune hiding under their paid for Reps and Senators cloaks. This is all such a joke to even begin to try to make 150 million Americans think it's about them when its really about less then 15 million. Tax and spend should be over as a failed policy and Defense, Oil and every other paid for corporate corrupt chump that bought a pass should be put on notice: Special Interest groups need not apply, the privilaged lunch is over for all and should have been a long time ago. The fact that nobody is focusing on Job creation shows just much the special interests control the media and the spin. Theres more of us then in those stupid Unions and yet they are what we are worried about forgetting our own plights; we lose houses and families but wah wah I can't collectively bargin America is unfair give me a break. If this doesn't show how much our media is controlled by both sides nothing will. Where is all this support for us? We are who is really in need and this slippery talking point slope BS means nothing because were at the bottom and in much larger numbers! But alais we don't have those Union dues to spend on bought and paid for politicians so were screwed. I didn't sign up to be some stupid freedom fighter for a cause left or right. I want a job and some security and a sense that the media thinks UE is a big of deal and story as a bunch of secure employed public sector employees/cry babies; we should be the focus.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by gettheminNOVEMBER on Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:11 pm

tristen The unions are the only major source of support for the dems, break the unions and the dems will be weakened. Take away their right to bargain and they can be bought. Think about if your boss was the opposite side of the isle as you. You don't conform and he can fire you.

I agree jobs should be first of course but if Boehner did his job and came up with some job bills then Obama will look good and he can't have that. Look at Walker he is ready to lay of 5 to 10 thousand if he does not get his way. Koch bros pull the strings these days. Hell they are all bought and paid for the system is rigged that way.

Wisconsin is only a starting point too. Did you hear the walker/koch tape?

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by tristen303 on Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:33 pm

Yes but our plight is bigger and more important we are the eroding and vanishing middleclass they will still have jobs either way at least if they become UE mabye then the media will really look into our plight. I have little feelings for any group that has bought and paid for access or reps for their needs. Our schools suck, and when I was a fireman I had my other job on the off days the police did the same as did the teachers in the summer so I'm a little amused at how bad off they are compared to us. I guess they should have spent their union dues better and bought some support form the right instead of just the left maybe this will teach everyone to work with both sides if you want someting done instead of buying hot air and spin from one. The whole thing is disgusting to actually prop it up as something heroic (like Egypt) is laughable and out of touch; so the Repubs say no and the Dems just leave wow our government is so screwed up no wonder the people want less it seems to not function under most circumstances (unless were bombing people in mud huts or spending money on dictators for oil and our military industrial complex). And where are the 35 million Americans that are UE well were supporting the what 10 million Union people with a golden parachute lol no wonder nothing is getting done for us were much to vaulable to both party's in our present state pissed and needy looking to punish or help who ever gives us attention just like a homeless begger looking for change.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by gettheminNOVEMBER on Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:40 pm

tristen303 wrote:Yes but our plight is bigger and more important we are the eroding and vanishing middleclass they will still have jobs either way at least if they become UE mabye then the media will really look into our plight. I have little feelings for any group that has bought and paid for access or reps for their needs. Our schools suck, and when I was a fireman I had my other job on the off days the police did the same as did the teachers in the summer so I'm a little amused at how bad off they are compared to us. I guess they should have spent their union dues better and bought some support form the right instead of just the left maybe this will teach everyone to work with both sides if you want someting done instead of buying hot air and spin from one. The whole thing is disgusting to actually prop it up as something heroic (like Egypt) is laughable and out of touch; so the Repubs say no and the Dems just leave wow our government is so screwed up no wonder the people want less it seems to not function under most circumstances (unless were bombing people in mud huts or spending money on dictators for oil and our military industrial complex). And where are the 35 million Americans that are UE well were supporting the what 10 million Union people with a golden parachute lol no wonder nothing is getting done for us were much to vaulable to both party's in our present state pissed and needy looking to punish or help who ever gives us attention just like a homeless begger looking for change.

I believe the right wants to keep the unemployment rate high for just this reason. To make the unions look over paid. We had no problems before Bush, as a matter of fact we had a surplus.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by tristen303 on Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:56 pm

No we had problems we were all just to stupid and living the good life to see them. And everyone should remember that wars destroy surpluses (especially never ending wars) and I think the only outspoken critic Kunschinch (can't spell his name) is now going to lose his seat to redistricting lol the games that are played by both sides.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by gettheminNOVEMBER on Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:59 pm

tristen303 wrote:No we had problems we were all just to stupid and living the good life to see them. And everyone should remember that wars destroy surpluses (especially never ending wars) and I think the only outspoken critic Kunschinch (can't spell his name) is now going to lose his seat to redistricting lol the games that are played by both sides.

Do you think the right wants to create jobs? That would make Obama look good can't have that.

Bottom line is and I have been saying this all day. No politician is going to ride in on a white horse and save the day. We have to save ourselves.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by tristen303 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:09 am

Yes to think otherwise is living in a fantasy world you see the less people there are to purchase goods the less money there is to be invested and spent. Being a consumer driven economy (and that the lefts term of "elite" applies to anybody not in a union that is a busness owner or makes over six figures and is succesful all of the forementioned group would lose there jobs, and stuff etc etc so how this would benefit the right is just laughable) we need consumers at all levels. That argument is as stupid as my side saying that the left is all socialists and communists trying to destroy the country. But I agree completely with your last statement they are not in it for us and won't be until the UE start paying dues or the top income earners become UE; we haven't bought either side and the one side just uses us for sound bites.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by gettheminNOVEMBER on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:13 am

tristen303 wrote:Yes to think otherwise is living in a fantasy world you see the less people there are to purchase goods the less money there is to be invested and spent. Being a consumer driven economy (and that the lefts term of "elite" applies to anybody not in a union that is a busness owner or makes over six figures and is succesful all of the forementioned group would lose there jobs, and stuff etc etc so how this would benefit the right is just laughable) we need consumers at all levels. That argument is as stupid as my side saying that the left is all socialists and communists trying to destroy the country. But I agree completely with your last statement they are not in it for us and won't be until the UE start paying dues or the top income earners become UE; we haven't bought either side and the one side just uses us for sound bites.

Is it more of the teaparty that pushes the socialists and communists BS?

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by tristen303 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:26 am

The tea party is the hard right of the Repub just rebranded the same idiots that think Obama was planted in America years ago by muslims to eventually become President to destroy America, or the religious hard right version where he just is the Anti Christ 2.0 (Clinton was 1.0). But many in my party do believe that the left is looking at Socialism as an option they use the class warfare argument as proof. See both Communisim and Socialism sprung from worker movements and after seeing how succesful entitlement states are and what Unions did to Europe (with the exception of some economies) they consider such suggestions or ideals a direct threat to America.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by mistermunster on Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:13 am

tristen303 wrote:The tea party is the hard right of the Repub just rebranded the same idiots that think Obama was planted in America years ago by muslims to eventually become President to destroy America, or the religious hard right version where he just is the Anti Christ 2.0 (Clinton was 1.0). But many in my party do believe that the left is looking at Socialism as an option they use the class warfare argument as proof. See both Communisim and Socialism sprung from worker movements and after seeing how succesful entitlement states are and what Unions did to Europe (with the exception of some economies) they consider such suggestions or ideals a direct threat to America.

They keep playing that Cold War BS, That Communisim and Socialism is the Bogeyman while unbridled and unregulated capitalism ran amuck did ALL this DAMAGE. A NEW worker movement scares the HELL out of unregulated capitalist because it would give their labor slaves a VOICE. Simply put, THEY DON'T WANT THAT. Communisim and Socialism has it's bad points if POWER is abused. Same goes for Capitalism...WE ARE living it's abuse this very moment. Capitalism is NO good either if it's not policed leaving the FEW to unjustly reap the rewards while the REST are BROKEN and ENSLAVED to enrich the few.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by tristen303 on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:22 am

We are a corporate oligarchy when you see the likes of Haliburton and the special treatment given GE you know both sides are on the dole and that there masters are calling the shots. Making sure we are always looking in the wrong direction while they make there moves. Its like a Shakesperean play.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by mistermunster on Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:49 am

tristen303 wrote:We are a corporate oligarchy when you see the likes of Haliburton and the special treatment given GE you know both sides are on the dole and that there masters are calling the shots. Making sure we are always looking in the wrong direction while they make there moves. Its like a Shakesperean play.

And like a Shakesperean play, it may end in violence and death. Who's can ONLY be guessed at this point.

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Re: Wisconsin is making the battle lines clear in America's hidden class war

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:15 am

I think the Republicans are making a huge mistake by breaking the unions. It's just going to force the unions to knuckle down and throw 100% of their support behind the Democrats.

What you have to remember is that the one thing you don't want is a desperate person on your back. Desperate people are unpredictable and that's exactly what the unions would become.

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